Season 01, Episode 01

Drunken Master Fighting Style:
Optimal Headbutting Technique

About the Episode: 

If you ever wind up transported to an alternate kung fu dimension while drunk- which, let’s face it, could happen any day- chances are that you will end up getting into a fight or two. Chances also are that you will end up getting hit in the head a lot. whether it is because you fight with it or someone hits you with it.  Graduate student Andrew Taibi explains why fighting with your head is generally not a good idea by introducing us to the different types of Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), the effects in can have on our brain, and the feasibility for recovery after these injuries. He also explains how,  despite popular media belief, alcohol itself is not very likely to improve abilities in which you weren’t very good at to begin with while sober, and how science has not actually shown wine is a substitute for exercise.

The full English transcript for this episode, which includes time-points and links to relevant segments, can be found below!



About Andrew Taibi:

I’m a PhD Candidate studying neuroscience at the University of Utah. Growing up I had always been curious about the world around me. In between dressing up as a ninja (or ninja-turtle) every Halloween, I was annoying my science teachers with an endless line of questioning. That was, of course, when I wasn’t finding snails, salamanders, frogs or other small animals to befriend. As I got older, I was drawn to studying the brain, particularly how it stores information in the form of memories. So I am now focused on doing experiments to develop a tool that accurately labels memory traces in the brain. Such a tool can be used to answer a range of questions regarding the brain’s early development, how it stores information both normally and under different contexts, and how memory is disrupted in a variety of neuropsychiatric disorders. When I am not in the lab I can be found hiking, watching kung fu movies, playing with my nunchucks, working out, geeking out, or hanging out. 


Read the Transcript:

Intro Music

TAIBI: Speaking of this… Jackie Chan if you are listening, let’s hang out sometime. Bro, you rock you’re like my hero. The foreigner was really good, I saw it this year. Good job man, you. Like, everything you do is awesome.  I love you, Jackie Chan.

HEIDI: Welcome to Cinema Science, a podcast where we interview professors, professionals, and graduate students using pop culture references as a talking point. We’ll discuss the science behind your favorite movies, games, and TV shows! Each episode will feature a new topic and guest who will answer questions from you guys, our wonderful listeners! I’m Heidi and today, I have Anne with me.


ANNE: Hello!

H:  Hello! And we have a special guest, Andrew Taibi.

TAIBI: Hey, what’s up

H: So tell us a little bit about yourself.

T: Well,  my name is Andrew Taibi. I work in Jason Shepherd’s lab here at the University of Utah, and we still study the cellular and molecular mechanisms of memory in the brain. So where your  brain stores information, how does it call upon that information and how does it keep that information for years, if not decades.

MOVIE SUMMARY [1:48-3:52]

H: Sweet. We’re not gonna talk about that today. Today, we’re gonna talk about one of your favorite movies.

T: Yes.

H: What movie is that?

T:  This is drunken master starring Jackie Chan, 1978 and also 1994,  and any other movie dealing with drunken master is pretty much… I’ve seen a lot of them.

A: So for those of us who haven’t had the privilege yet of watching drunken master, because the Youtube version is in German for some reason, I don’t know why [laughter] , could you give us just a really quick synopsis?

T: Well, Jackie Chang plays and impetulant young martial artist  who is sent to learn and also at the same time be disciplined by his uncle who is known as master So Hi who has a secret style and has never had a student basically go through his training regimen, but in the context of Jackie Chan being such a poorly-behaved young martial artist, it was okay to punish him with training, and at the same time, teach him this new style which… are spoilers okay? [Anne and Heidi: Yes!]. Hmm, okay [H: It’s up to you]  Okay, so he uses it to basically defend his father from being assassinated by a very great martial artist in an epic duel at the end of the movie where he uses everything he’s learned from the old drunken master So Hi to then this beat this great martial artist back and save the day, basically. It’s a really good movie, I highly recommend it and all of the related movies also. Any kung fu movie, just… just watch them..



H: All of them.

T: All kung fu movies [laughter]

WHAT IS TBI? [3:57-10:25]

A: So kung fu.. I guess that leads us to our science topic, which we are gonna talk about traumatic brain injuries. So, I guess since you’re the expert could you just tell us a little bit about what that is… how it occurs…?

T: So, as you could sort of get from the name, Traumatic Brain Injury occurs from a trauma to the brain. So.. the the brain is generally encased in this thing we have called a skull, it’s usually pretty protective, and there are these layers in between the bone of the skull and the actual brain tissue that would help cushing the brain against impacts, but those aren’t always 100% effective, especially if you have a very significant force being applied to the head. So that’s what a traumatic brain injury is, but the way it is defined is by sort of diagnostic criteria called the Glasgow Coma Scale,  which scores the severity of general head injuries based on eye, verbal,  and motor tests that any neurologist can perform in the clinic and they have a scale that goes to 15- the lower the scale, the more severe the injury- and TBI is considered anything below 15. so you should have some kind of deficit in your… eye verbal or motor responses to doctors questions and so forth.

H: So in drunken master, Jackie Chan fights this really cool dude, this really cool bald guy.

T: He is not cool

[laughter, crosstalk]

A: Heidi’s favorite character

H: My favorite character. I mean, this guy just fights Jackie Chan with his head and he is just smashing his head up against Jackie Chan chest, head-butting him, and he was very effective.

A: Umm…


T: Okay, so for those of you who haven’t seen the movie, that guy loses [laugher. H: Spoilers].  I would say that, in my opinion, he is one of the more lame fighters [laughter]. But yeah, they follow this….it’s a very comical scene,  this guy uses his head to actually fight, based on this kind of outdated notion that If you subject your body to impacts again and again and again, you sort of harden that part of your body, which may or may not be true if you’ve seen videos of Muay Thai fighters in Thailand kicking trees and so forth,  plan kicking trees and so forth, but I would not recommend to do that with your head… or frankly any other part of your body, but the head really don’t do it because as we know from I guess NFL stuff… chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and, as we’ll be talking about, TBI, has a huge range of severity,and I’m sure this fighter that Heidi was referring to may have a very hard head, but I wouldn’t rely on him for things that require let’s say high levels of cognitive aptitude if you will. Sorry, what was the question? Was that a question?  

H: I just wanted to talk about him [laughter]

T: Yeah, so, Jackie Chan wins the fight by… well Jackie Chan character wins the fight by smacking him on the head with a hammer a bunch of times, and there’s a very, very funny-looking goose eggs that pop up on this guy’s head…but I would imagine if you did get hit with an iron hammer on your head you would definitely be scoring below a 15 or even lower on this Glasgow Coma Scale for TBI, so.. yeah. I wouldn’t do that. I wouldn’t fight with your head.

H: So, in TBI is the trauma induced by the impact or is it the swinging of the head or a combination of both?

T: Well, you can have… So there’s different types of TBIs. So, there are what you call focal or localized TBI and more general TBI.  So TBI can be induced by the brain actually hitting the inside of the brain case.

A: The skull brain case?

T: Oh right, the skull. [laughs crosstalk]. The brain house? Brain box. So, by an impact of the brain on the inside of the skull, which can be caused by things like whiplash or any sudden stop or change in acceleration. You could get the brain gliding with the inside of the skull, that would be a more generalized area of impact. So you can have global TBI, so something like whiplash,  or maybe even a shock wave from an explosion, that’s happening actually a lot with returning veterans. So those are more general, they affect many brain areas. Or  you can have focal either penetrating or non-penetrating TBIs that would severely affect one specific area of the brain but be less generalizable.  But either way the effects of TBI really depend on the severity and the location of the injury.

A: So could you just tell us a little bit more about how we study TBI, how we get to learn more about the effects of the traumatic brain injury?

T: So what they usually do in the lab is they will try to try to induce some kind of impact on the brain, so they can use an actual physical impact or… another lab, actually, that is here at the University of Utah actually fires 22 rifle right next to a mouse’s head. And they use blanks they’re not shooting the mouse they’re just using the shock wave from the blast to cause a more generalized TBI. But I think there are lots of different animal models of TBI… and that can be good or bad depending on your perspective, I think we really need need to synthesize and come up with good meta-analyses for all of those models to get useful conclusions. But yeah. Did that answer the question?

A: Yeah [laughter]

“POSITIVE EFFECTS” OF ALCOHOL (1)  [10:25-19:41]

H:  So, again, in drunken master the premise is  Jackie Chan being trained by this master who happens to get drunk and fights.  There have been a couple of studies I think that have suggested maybe alcohol could be some sort of neuro-protective mechanism. What are your thoughts on this? Is there any science behind that?

T: Well, there are some studies that show that alcohol can be neuro-protective of TBI, but it’s a very interesting question, and they’ve seen that low to moderate alcohol administration- I’m using the word administration rather than consumption because  the studies I’m referring to were done in animal models- they seem to have a neuro-protective effect that was shown behaviorally they seemed to recover a faster more effectively in terms of some motor tasks and memory tasks but it’s important to note that this was low to moderate alcohol administration that is specific to the weight and body volume of the animal, if you were to use a “heavy dose” relative to that animal’s body weight, they had much poorer outcomes. So, the thought of getting wasted, and then having a lot better of an outcome from some kind of trauma is not really… I would say that I wouldn’t count that data, I would look at the low to moderate dose effects.

A: So you’re saying low to moderate alcohol may be neuro-protective but what are you… what are you protecting against?  What happens in TBI? For example, life expectancy? What happens to the brain…?

T: TBI and things like chronic TBI- what we can refer to as CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, so repeated insults to the brain- those things cause neuro-inflammatory responses, and also they kind of… as in you have inflammation in the brain which is generally not great. They can also break blood vessels in your brain and those blood vessels are necessary for healing processes, and when those are broken, they make the inflammatory response hell of a lot worse. When you have low to moderate alcohol consumption there have been some studies that show at least chronically that these things can improve a little bit of blood flow and stress. So they made lower things like cortisol which can exacerbate a neuro-inflammatory response, but the link between these more “beneficial” -and I wanna say that very carefully, “beneficial effects of alcohol consumption”  are not….I think there’s a lot more work that needs to be done to convince me that of what the cellular mechanism is that protects the brain and your nervous tissue from traumatic brain injury. And I may have used the wrong word there, with using the word “protect”, I think it probably mitigates or aids in blood flow and relaxation after the fact.

A: so if you were going to go fight Jackie  Chan with only your head, you probably wouldn’t  down seven bottles of alcohol beforehand.

T: [laughs]. No… although  you probably couldn’t get me to fight Jackie Chan with my head unless I had downed 7 bottles of alcohol. That would be the  non-beneficial effects of heavy alcohol consumption, potential to fight Jackie Chan. [crosstalk, laughter]. Probably a bad decision for everyone.

H: Jackie Chan is nice enough, he probably would just say no.


T: I would say you’d probably have to beat up everyone in Jackie Chan’s crew, like, as many bosses, before you even get to fight Jackie Chan right? You gotta work up to it, ‘cause Jackie Chan is not going to fight… he’s not gonna fight just anybody. [crosstalk and agreement in the background].

A: You reach that level you can call it shots I guess. [laughter].

H: So this isn’t  the first time that alcohol has been associated with positive effects.  I remember last year there was a whole bunch of articles coming out saying that if you drink a glass of wine every night it’s like going to the gym and you basically didn’t have to exercise. Is there any truth between this?

T: Okay, so for context, I’m a very big advocate of going to the gym and living a healthy active lifestyle and I think headlines that tell people that they can just drink wine and reap all the benefits of doing physical activity on a regular basis, over time, it’s pretty… it’s a strech, and I think it’s something that people use it as, excuse to not go to the gym and just sit around and drink.That… please don’t do that.

So a lot of these things are based on a 2012 study that looked at rats who had a specific component of red wine, called resveratrol, added to their diet and they saw slight improvements in endurance and strength when combined with exercise. So the rats did this 12-week exercise regimen where they ran for an hour a day, some had resveratrol, some did not.

A: So none of them were actually given wine itself.

T: There was no wine at all in this study. Also wine is an acquired taste… it’s kind of bitter, like I don’t even know if you can… can you get a rat to drink wine?

A: … I don’t know.

T: Either way, they found that a component of wine helped improve the improvement from exercise. The resveratrol alone  showed very, very minor- I don’t wanna ignore it- very minor improvements in things like endurance and strength but this was absolutely dwarfed by exercise alone. So, no, you can’t just drink wine, you lazy prick.

A: And, back to the movie…  Jackie Chan didn’t get as good at fighting by drinking. It was probably from the exercise.

T: No. He was trained by a well-known and well-respected and feared master of kung fu. He was trained, according to the movie, over the course of a year, okay? He did a lot of exercise and practiced a lot of forms and then became good at kung fu  the way you become good at kung fu which is by practice, not by getting drunk every day that is for sure.

H: So Taibi you get really drunk do you automatically know drunken fist fighting style?

T: Absolutely [laughs] No, no.  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, in fact. Okay, so the question I think it’s great, that’s a good question. No, you don’t learn anything, just by getting drunk, not even if it’s drunk and kung fu.  Again, you have to train and learn it and the whole premise of drunken kung fu, according to what kung fu masters say, and what I’ve seen in movies and documentaries and such is that it’s based on a deception, it’s based on making your opponent think that you’re absolutely hammered and uncoordinated and makes them less able to predict your movements and giving you the upper hand in combat. Now, of course, being loose and uninhibited which may be associated with low to moderate alcohol consumption may help in that style. You don’t learn just by drinking. You don’t learn anything just by drinking. You forget a lot of things just by drinking, actually.

H: Exactly [laughs, crosstalk]

CAN TBI BE REVERSED? [19:41-21:28]

A: So I was looking on Yahoo questions, and I thought this was good. They said: Can traumatic brain injury be reversed? Is there any research into reversing the effects of these injuries?

T: Well, physical therapy and things like that are definitely useful for a lot of patients. But to answer that question is really… it’s really difficult because traumatic brain injury, as we discussed in terms of what its severity is and what are the the types and everything, it’s so varied that there are some forms that you absolutely cannot reverse. Take Christopher Reeve for example,  he had a brain stem injury…or … upper cervical dislocation may… that’s not traumatic… [crosstalk]. He was… he was quadraplegic yeah. But that was from… I forget whether it was cervical dislocation or higher in the brain stem area, but… so there are certain highly severe forms of traumatic brain injury, stroke for example, depending on its severity and the area that it disrupts, it can be very, very, very, very difficult to mitigate, but some recovery is definitely possible even in severe cases. But, again, we’re looking at a population that is highly variable,  with an injury type that’s highly variable that has its own… even in a single individual, if you’re talking about regions of the brain and how severe the effects of the injury are, it’s highly variable. So at the individual level  it’s variable, at the disease level it’s variable, at the population level it’s variable. So that’s not really a question I can answer.


H: Fair enough. And speaking of which, how hard do you have to hit your head to actually have what is  defined as a traumatic brain injury?

T: You must score at least below a 15 on the Glasgow Coma Scale, which means… I actually had this pulled up… you have to at least have a deficient response to eye opening, your eyes can’t open spontaneously, that gives you a slightly lower than ideal score on the eye portion of the  GCs. You should be a little bit confused or disoriented when responding to verbal tests and your motor responses should be a a little bit deficient, they measure that by flexion or withdrawal from a painful stimuli or your ability to localize the stimuli. Like, say, my hand hurts, if I can’t tell you where, in my hand  it hurts or which hand hurts, then that could be an indicator that my motor…. my motor senses are a little bit deficient.

H: So the outcomes of the injury is what they determine the severity?  

T: Yes, according to how it’s defined.

H: I see…


T: Yeah, in terms of studies that show benefits of wine or alcohol, components, I would definitely look at the data yourself, and see if you can make a conclusion. And I think you’ll find that they get sensationalized, very heavily, the news reports about it and the journalism around it.

I mean, ethanol in your central nervous system is generally not good, it’s not good for learning and making new memories as we know from the fact that if you drink a lot, you don’t remember anything, so it can’t really be that good for making memories, but there is something to be said about the relaxation that many people feel when they are having a glass of wine after dinner, or with a meal or just relaxing with a beverage. If that’s the way that people relax, then I think that that’s beneficial and I think that the relaxation and social and psychological aspect of it is really what helps when your alcohol consumption is moderate. It’s not to say having a third or fourth whiskey can’t result in some good times, but don’t look for health benefits after your first glass.  

H: Right, so, what are some potential benefits for a moderate consumption of alcohol? Have there been studies associated with diseases or…

T: Yeah, so the ones that made the most sense where sort of  of large-scale studies on lots and lots of human individuals, we’re talking in the thousands and tens of thousands, and meta-analysis covering hundreds of thousands that show there was a slightly lower risk of things like diabetes type II  and also like coronary heart and stroke and things. But I do wanna emphasize that I don’t think, or know, that it’s the cellular molecular effects of the ethanol molecule on neurons in your brain that’s doing this. I personally… this is my personal opinion a little bit because studies have that have looked at the cellular mechanisms have only showed kind of detriment to your neurons, and how they function, my personal opinion is that it’s the social and psychological effects of relaxing with a beverage that help people more so than “ethanol’s effects on a certain receptor that’s expressed on certain neurons in your pre-frontal cortex”.  

A: Yeah, and that sort of speaks to what you’re talking about earlier about the glass of wine study. They weren’t looking at the effects of ethanol on exercise, they were looking at the effects of one of the other components of wine and how that affected it. So I guess with these human studies is hard to control all of the different chemicals as well as all the different variables that might be present.


H: So we have a Twitter question here from one of our many listeners @JLKessle

T: [trying to read it] JKslley? JK…?

H: It’s a good friend of ours, Julian [laughs] So in some situations, the skills learned when intoxicated seemed to go away when sober. For example, I usually play darts when slightly intoxicated.However, when I play at darts sober, I’m not as well-coordinated. Is it dependent on the state of the person during the learning?

T: So this is actually really a great question from a person who we know, which we may or may not like… Julian [laughs] I’m just kidding I like you man, he’s cool. So… this whole notion of state-dependent learning and “if you learn something drunk or in some state of mind, you should then perform that thing most effectively when you’re in that same state” right,  I learned I played drunk… [laughs] I played drunk when I dart… I played darts when I drunk- wow that still wasn’t good [lauhgs]- but anyways yeah, he plays drank when he is drunk… ish, when he’s had a few drinks,, and he thinks that he’s better at it when he’s drunk, than he’s sober which makes a lot of sense, right? This is a great question, but it’s also very difficult to answer because most memory studies in rodents or other animal models are all done in the context of state-dependent learning so…we associate some event, or some action with a context and then we test the rats ability or whatever, animal’s ability to remember what they need to remember in that same context.

So if there was a non… if there are more studies showing non-state dependent, learning I think I could answer that or maybe I’d have to read up more to see if I can find them, but I think it’s very important that the context of whatever you’re learning is present when you perform.

That being said, this is a different kind of context. Then people usually test in rats and mice. And  studies using animals have seen that alcohol does not help with memory. And even…we can talk about my favorite thing about the brain and its function in that… the way your brain learns things we think is tied to a phenomenon called synaptic plasticity. So it’s…  basically changes in the strength of connections between different brain regions and brain cells and data has shown that alcohol only seems to disrupt the ability of cells to facilitate or perform that plasticity, and it’s known that drugs that disrupt plasticity also normally disrupt memory.

That being said, I’m sure there are dose-effects to it. As in, heavy drinking, we all know causes some anterograde amnesia so you can get “blackout drunk”, and clearly whatever you learned when you were black out drunk, you didn’t learn… ’cause you don’t remember it, okay? Although I don’t recall anybody trying to do a study on humans, where you get humans blackout drunk and then teach them a motor task and then ask them to perform it when they’re sober. I’ve never seen that study…

A: I think there would have to be grad students who would have to do that.

T: [Laughs] Yeah. “Alright, for a week we’re getting blackout wasted every night, and you are gonna do something”, teach them to play the piano or whatever. But yeah, there is no…  I’m sure there are dosing effects…stresses and cortisol are definitely not good for learning. So if you’re in a context where you’re having a nice relaxing time, you’re in a bar having a beer or two, and playing darts, sometimes for hours on end I’m sure that that plays into how you remember and perform the activity later on. So if you’re in a more stressful environment, where there is no beer and it’s well-lit, and you can see…everybody sees how ugly you are, and you’re stressed out about that…for example…

A: Stop describing me

T: [laughs] “Stop describing me!” [laughter]

So I’m just saying in a dimly lit relaxing bar type environment that might be a great context to learn a lot of different things. And if you have a beer and you’re relaxed, then sure, if you’re stressed out because you’re sober and you’re in a dart throwing competition that could affect your performance. In fact, I bet it would.

H:  Yeah, so again, it’s not necessarily the ethanol itself that’s creating this type of learning, it’s more of the context and how relaxed you are.

T: Yeah, based on the animal studies it seems like the ethanol is just…  it’s not good for how your cells function. But when you’re studying synaptic plasticity  they’re basically putting ethanol in a bath with some brain tissue they’re not giving the rat some ethanol… like, it’s not having a beer and then you’re testing the electrical responses while it’s having the beer and learning stuff. So I think it’s a great question. I think more work needs to be done to understand this phenomenon, but my gut tells me that it’s more of the global effects of being relaxed and chilled out and having a beer while you learn or discuss something, so…


A:  So if you had to to fight Jackie Chan  at something, what skill would

T: I’d fight Jackie Chan at a PCR competition [laughter]

H: There we go! [crosstalk]

A: I bet he doesn’t think to put his enzyme on ice and stuff.

T: Probably not… I’ve got it. But  a lot of the PCR times now are HotStart, so he may even get away with it.

H: Yeah, that’s right

A: Heidi if you had to challenge our new best friend apparently, Jackie Chan…

T: Uh, he is only my best friend. Only mine. [A & H: Oh.. sorry, sorry] So he can’t be your friend.

A: We could challenge him to a best friend contest.

T: Jackie Chan, if you are listening [laughter, crosstalk].

H: Which of the three of us would be the best friend of Jackie Chan [laughter, crosstalk]

A: So Heidi what would your competition be?

H: Man, this is so hard. I wanted to say rock climbing but he would probably kick my ass at that, he’s gonna be so good at that!

T: Yeah, have you seen like, What’s My Name and stuff? It’s like you.. you climb up anything! He can climb up a sheer face with like, no bumps on it.

H: He climbs up air! He doesn’t even need a rock !

T: I’ve seen him in The Forbidden Kingdom , he floats up. He has the legendary floating foot.

A: Now I realize I have no skills.

H: Sewing. I bet I can beat him on sewing. I’ve never heard of Jackie Chan sewing something [everyone: ooohh]. I think I could be a better seamstress, I guess, than Jackie Chan.

A: Do you challenge him to a sewing contest…?

H: What would that competition even be like. We would try to make… project runway style?

H: Make it work Jackie Chan!

T: Whoever makes the warmest sweater.

H: Yeah, but Taibi has to test it out, and I know  you’re just gonna choose Jackie Chan

A:  Yeah, he’s a biased judge.

T: Yeah….

H: Jackie Chan just hugs you [crosstalk]. Taibi feels all warm inside.

T: Yeah, he doesn’t even have to sew.

H: Dammit!

T: That’s fine


T: Jackie Chan if you are listening… give me a hug [H & A: d’aww]. [laughs] Oh Jackie Chan.

H: So what about you Anne? [crosstalk]

A: Oh ! I’m really good at rapping Hamilton!

H: Jackie chan does sing though [everyone: oohhh]. He is a really good singer.

T: Yeah but  rapping?

[everyone considers this]

H: … Jackie Chan raps.

[everyone: oohhhh!]

T: Of course he does! God, he is an amazing person.

A: If I had to challenge Jackie Chan and something, and I guess being his best friend is already taken, Andrew Taibi…

T: Yup, that’s me!

A: I may try a volleyball a game or something…

[everyone laughs]

T: He would destroy you

A:  So he would probably beat me… But I got  nothing else ’cause as I was just looking for skills, it seems like he has every skill imaginable.It’s  just maybe sucking up to Jackie Chan ’cause he seems like he’s probably also really humble, so I could beat him in that in a… Yeah, yeah, it seems like it’s bound to fail regardless. So… I’ll just …

T:  I’m sorry

A: …play some volleyball and see what happens.  

H: I was going to say you could have fun, but he’d probably defeat you at having fun as well.

[everyone: yeah….]

A: He would have a good attitude the whole time….

T: And he could do parkour…I’m pretty sure he invented parkour. I’m pretty sure that parkour started  because of people seeing how he did his early movies, the fun way that He coordinated chasing and things like jumping through small things, using whatever is in the environment. Why go down the stairs when I can jump through the railing instead. [crosstalk, laughter]. What an amazing person.

H: Thank you for listening to this episode of cinema Science, and thank you Andrew Taibi for joining us this episode

T:  please feel free to visit our lab’s website, that is the  . That is the shepherd lab and that’s -S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D-Lab. If you were to just search for shepherd lab on Google, it will come up, but only after a series of images of shepherd lab mixes which are great [laughter] very worth checking out.

H: If  you’d like to learn more about our guest’s research, or the  topics that were covered in today’s episode, check out our website at You can find us collectively on Twitter @CinemaSciCast and you can find Heidi at @PandaBumHah. Anne  doesn’t have a Twitter, but her dog Hubble sure does; you can find him at @HubbleGibson. Our intro and outro music was composed by Kagan Breitenbach. You  can find more information about him at our website but also check out his personal website at The first season of Cinema Science is graciously funded by the University of Utah’s Neuroscience Initiative. Thank you for tuning in today’s episode. Byeee!